Curse

Bryant Again · Feb 08, 2007, 05:41 PM // 17:41

I'm rather a little lost on this one...I thought Heros were implemented because of the PUG problem. Is that incorrect? If so, were Heros a "failed idea"?

Bryant Again · Feb 08, 2007, 05:43 PM // 17:43

I'm a little lost on this one...I thought heros were created because the PUG situation was bad. Is that incorrect? If so, were Heros a "failed idea"?

Kuldebar Valiturus · Feb 08, 2007, 06:08 PM // 18:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

I'm rather a little lost on this one...I thought Heros were implemented because of the PUG problem. Is that incorrect? If so, were Heros a "failed idea"?

Depends on what you mean by "PuG problem".

Was ANet giving us Heroes and improved Henchies because player groups were of poor gamer quality? <I don't think so>

I believe ANet gave us these tools because the player base was spread out over 3 chapters and getting groups was becoming a significant challenge.

Now, unintended consequences being what they are...we still have a thinned out population and a dwindling number of players that actually play together.

Also, it creates a situation that tends to make PuG's more likely to be perceived as a negative experience.

It takes time to develop good grouping skills and discipline but unfortunately most players (especially newer players) will never get that experience.

A predicament that perpetuates itself.

-Good players are hard to find because most people will choose to play with Heroes/improved Henchies.

-Most people choose to use Heroes/improved Henchies because PuG's are considered sub-par and good players are hard to find.

-Heroes/improved Henchies tend to promote poor team work skills and lessen player interaction.

-The remaining players that don't use Heroes/improved and seek player groups tend to be newer and inexperienced players.

Aeon221 · Feb 08, 2007, 06:21 PM // 18:21

I'm going to conclude my involvement thusly:

You people have your heads so far up your asses that none of you realized that this feature is already in the game.

Kuldebar Valiturus · Feb 08, 2007, 06:27 PM // 18:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aeon221

I'm going to conclude my involvement thusly:

You people have your heads so far up your asses that none of you realized that this feature is already in the game.

Care to make more sense?

The group bonus "feature" for playing with human players?

Loviatar · Feb 08, 2007, 06:30 PM // 18:30

[QUOTE]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kuldebar Valiturus

Depends on what you mean by "PuG problem".

Was ANet giving us Heroes and improved Henchies because player groups were of poor gamer quality? <I don't think so>

that part is correct as henchies were designed from the start to either fill a spot or as the game box itself says to *PLAY SOLO*

Quote:

I believe ANet gave us these tools because the player base was spread out over 3 chapters and getting groups was becoming a significant challenge.

WRONG

we had henchies from the start and the only reason they were not used by most people is that it took an EXPERT to use them.

from the BWE on the most constant request was fix the henchies so i can get rid of........

the penis map drawers
the give me 5k or i agro everything and then zone
the rage quitter if he isnt the boss
all the antisocial jerks whose idea of fun is ruin the others fun.

your join date shows that you missed a ton of posts by people detailing the latest nightmare PUG experience.

it is not being spread out that killed the PUG it is the obnoxious average PUG player

heroes did not change anything over night .

what you see are people making a choice between a hero and being in another jerk group

Winterclaw · Feb 08, 2007, 06:33 PM // 18:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by kuldebar

I believe ANet gave us these tools because the player base was spread out over 3 chapters and getting groups was becoming a significant challenge.

If that were the case, why add heroes to nightfall (which was going to have the most players when it came out) when proph and factions were starting to get empty? Heroes don't help people who have the first two games. In fact it kind of hurts them because at least if someone has nightfall, getting a hero monk for your group will never be a problem and is more attractive than henchies.

Anyways, I'm going to sign the OPs first and second ideas (but not the numbers with the second idea), but not the 3rd and fourth ones. The first one would help everyone, and the second gives good reason to group. The third might hurt the economy and the fourth will hurt people who can't get pugs or need to bring along a hero to play the tank or a monk.

Jetdoc · Feb 08, 2007, 06:37 PM // 18:37

Why is it that every suggestion thread turns into a "Don't Force Me to Play a Certain Way" or a "Heroes are the Root of All Evil" thread?

Simply put, the OP was attempting to find a way to encourage people to play multiplayer. Taking things away from players who like to play single player PvE is simply a bad idea, for many of the reactions you see in this thread.

However, providing incentives to those that choose to group, IMO, is a good idea. One does NOT mean the other.

CDittric77 · Feb 08, 2007, 06:40 PM // 18:40

I actually don't see this as an issue. As a relatively new player to the game (I first started playing in the early fall) I have actually found it rewarding to party with other newer players - it forces us to develop strategy, work on builds, and frankly, gives us the motivation to stick together.

I think the prior arguments in this thread rely on the assumption that newer players are looking for but can't find experienced assistance and/or that experienced players are of such value that it is implausable to think of a newer player getting along in a mission.

Both, I think, are false assumptions.

It bears repeating as well that if you are looking for a greater community, join a guild, get your guild in an alliance - there are plenty of people to meet that way!

Kuldebar Valiturus · Feb 08, 2007, 06:47 PM // 18:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

WRONG

we had henchies from the start and the only reason they were not used by most people is that it took an EXPERT to use them.

Pleae notice that I am speaking of Heroes and improved Henchies. Not discussing the pre-improved inclusion of Henchies in the game. Those Henchies didn't have a real impact on PuG's.

But, yes, earlier on, Henchies were a challenge for newer players. I recall many people never using Henchies because they "sucked"...it was preferable to group with other players.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

If that were the case, why add heroes to nightfall (which was going to have the most players when it came out) when proph and factions were starting to get empty? Heroes don't help people who have the first two games. In fact it kind of hurts them because at least if someone has nightfall, getting a hero monk for your group will never be a problem and is more attractive than henchies.

4th chapter is going to be released at some point.

Heroes are just an improvement on a game concept that was made to counter the lack of human players to group with. As the player base spreads further out, they will become more necessary if the trend continues. Also, Henchies were improved for every campaign.

As far as Heroes not helping players in the first 2 campaigns, that's not actually correct.

When my Factions character gets off the noob island I have him go to Elona and grab tthe Heroes, then onto Lion's Arch for Olias and Cantha mainland for the Assasin hero.

I think I had 8 or 9 Heroes my last count.

Winterclaw · Feb 08, 2007, 06:56 PM // 18:56

Quote:

When my Factions character gets off the noob island I have him go to Elona and grab tthe Heroes, then onto Lion's Arch for Olias and Cantha mainland for the Assasin hero.

Yes but you have nightfall. If player X only has one or both of the first two games, he's not being helped by heroes where he is most likely to need that help.

Burst Cancel · Feb 08, 2007, 07:02 PM // 19:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aeon221

I'm going to conclude my involvement thusly:

You people have your heads so far up your asses that none of you realized that this feature is already in the game.

The revelation of which makes you look like a retard, because it clearly isn't accomplishing anything you hoped it would accomplish - in particular, the promotion of PuGing. Thus making your OP entirely useless. GG.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kuldebar Valiturus

Care to make more sense?

The group bonus "feature" for playing with human players?

My guess is that this is simply a lame attempt to salvage some dignity by attempting to make the OP seem clever and giving us "something to think about". Suggestion #4 is clearly already in the game, since heroes take their share of drops and therefore lower drop rates for the player. However, I have never seen definitive statistical evidence for #2 and #3 (ie. adding players to the group improves each individual's drops).

Quote:

Originally Posted by CDittric77

I think the prior arguments in this thread rely on the assumption that newer players are looking for but can't find experienced assistance and/or that experienced players are of such value that it is implausable to think of a newer player getting along in a mission.

Both, I think, are false assumptions.

It's about time one of the newer players pointed this out. Thanks.

Kuldebar Valiturus · Feb 08, 2007, 07:02 PM // 19:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

Yes but you have nightfall. If player X only has one or both of the first two games, he's not being helped by heroes where he is most likely to need that help.

Yet, you forget about improved Henchies which are available to all campaigns.

Improved Henchies are many times better than their older versions. The flag control mad a huge difference.

Additionally, I believe it's entirely possible to expect Heroes to be available to all campaigns at some point in either a full or limited way. Much like the Storage Improvement in Factions...

Kuldebar Valiturus · Feb 08, 2007, 07:06 PM // 19:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by CDittric77
I think the prior arguments in this thread rely on the assumption that newer players are looking for but can't find experienced assistance and/or that experienced players are of such value that it is implausable to think of a newer player getting along in a mission.

Both, I think, are false assumptions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

It's about time one of the newer players pointed this out. Thanks.

I don't dispute that observation. I am more concerned about the general level of player interaction and the trends I have witnessed over the last couple of years.

Winterclaw · Feb 08, 2007, 07:26 PM // 19:26

Flag controls help, but there's nothing that can be done about normal henchies' skill sets or how/when they use their skills. You also have no way of sending one henchie out to pull a mob like you can do with Jin or Margrid.

Tempy · Feb 08, 2007, 07:27 PM // 19:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

Are you honestly trying to say that AI are better than people? Go observer mode and count how many heroway guilds are in gvg. If ai is so much moe effective than humans why aren't they used more in the highest levels of the game?

Oh Yes and those are PUG's????? NOPE!!!!

Sorry to say it but the AI is better than more than half the players out there...and guess what you don't have to deal with attitude from them. Although after this late update they(AI) seem to be doing exactly what they want even when a target is called.

/not signed....If I wanted to play with impatient, never make a mistake, aggro everything know it alls...I would RA more.

and for those of you that agree with this idea...what happens when you get on a team with 1 or more "idiots"? You leave? Oh yes, this is going to help game play and provide more interest in PUG's. Or what if its a W/R or any other non cookie cutter build that jumps in....*kick* Can't tell you how many times I have been in Endgame missions and taking through nonstandard builds with me because no one else wants them.

Hmmmm, I guess with that last comment, once again its not the PUG that is the problem its the person at the computer's mindset. Forcing people to play with each other for economic gain will only create more stress, and cause more people to leave.

TheRaven · Feb 08, 2007, 07:49 PM // 19:49

LOL, Kinda ironic that the game which brought us heroes and allowed many to abandon PUGs has as it's motto - "You never fight alone!"

Kuldebar Valiturus · Feb 08, 2007, 07:53 PM // 19:53

People play online games primarily so they can play with other people and game developers seek to provide a platform for that activity and make a profit.

If the game is truly full of idiots and poor players, then we need to ask ourselves, "Why"?

If you no longer need to rely, talk or interact with other players in a game, is it any wonder that there's a lack of civil society and gamer team work within the game?

Yeah dealing with people is a pain, I know. You have to consider their feelings, try to understand them, help them, ask for help from them...it can all get pretty messy.

Thank goodness we have Heroes and improved Henchies.

Tempy · Feb 08, 2007, 08:02 PM // 20:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kuldebar Valiturus

You have to consider their feelings, try to understand them, help them, ask for help from them...it can all get pretty messy.

And therein lies the problem a HUGE percentage of people don't give a damn about the other people. "It's ALL about ME!" Guess it comes down to how much you enjoy being abused...LOL

Praetor · Feb 08, 2007, 08:02 PM // 20:02

Griefing was an issue that a.net failed to directly address. Simply put, they "nuked" the whole PUG problem using heros. There was no punishment for greifing (only isolated, extreme cases might have been dealt with).